[tor-dev] Agnostic Tools: Code Dev and Support For

[grarpamp]

I'm interested in helping you guys with Tor development. I don't really care
what I work on, except I do not support .onion websites (though I am willing
to be convinced otherwise) so I would prefer not to participate directly in
their development. I have plenty of experience with writing code

Folks in convo before have covered some of these areas
and more that one could surely find or think of...

Philosophical...

Why does someone want to support and develop for Tor, or any other
overlay p2p anonymity network, or crypto, for that matter?
When even a fix to the manpage could be read and used by onion users
and operators, same for metrics, lists, or any other part of the ecosystem.
Does one fear "bad" things, association, or support "good" things?
Does freespeech, anonymity, privacy, human rights sound "good"?
What is "bad"? Censorship? Theft, Dictatorships, Police States,
whether one's own, that of the Enemy, or that of the Oppressed?
Cryptocurrency, anonymity, free markets, privacy, messaging... "bad"?
"Good" [only] when used to defeat "bad" things inside or outside
of [mal]functional democracies that assert majority force over
minorities who have forced no one? Ricochet, Signal, GPG... "bad"?
New technology that forces change over old entrenched ways... "bad"?
Are anonymous forums where professional therapists give pro bono
counseling to even the most reviled, depraved, criminal, socially
scarlet lettered and outcast... "bad"? Materials and talk of religion?
Are datamining, traffic archiving, exploits, cleartext... "good"?
Tor has exits... do people realize how much of both what they like
to "support", and abhor, travels over those exits? The variety of
traffic there is no different than onions. Should exits be unsupported?
What about the internet, or printing presses, should those tools
be unsupported? Are they "bad", get their makers looked askew?
Onions, exits, internet, presses, hammers... all simply agnostic
tools. Tools can be used to build great things, to defend, or to
wield in bloody murder.
And what of biases over certain agnostic tools instead of over the
separate "good" or "bad" uses of them? Do other tool builders and
users have to wonder if their tools are being compromised by those
with such biases?
What of when those with biases end up needing the tools themselves,
what will be the tool quality, or their ability to do "good" with them?
Have people taken the time to explore the onion space to find and
participate in all the "good" things they like therein, to create and
grow them, or even engage in counsel and advocacy against the "bad"?
What tools would be needed to do that?

Yes, people are free to work on what they like...
including giving deep thought as to what they like and don't, and
why, and how supporting agnostic tools can actually fit with that.

Are not your pens tools?
Who likes those?
Who supports those?
What if they didn't?
Pens... write code.


Tech, fun, politic...

Amounting to consideration feature X may prevent or diminish a
better archictecture on balance for some higher importance feature Y.
That should be covered open devops as usual.

Or if the *technology* or *code* of eg: eepsites onions, or other
subsets of various projects are not in their interest or knowledge
practice area. Ok.

Or if the features provided by any overlay network or tool are
deemed flawed, and the technical or political effort to get them
fixed, or rearchitecture, or correctly advertised, or called out
within as bunk, is too high, therein it may be better to abandon
them and or speak out freely as such.

[nullius]

I don't really care what I work on, except I do not support .onion
websites (though I am willing to be convinced otherwise) so I would
prefer not to participate directly in their development.
[...]
Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
Philosophical...
Why does someone want to support and develop for Tor, or any other
overlay p2p anonymity network, or crypto, for that matter? When even a
fix to the manpage could be read and used by onion users and operators,
same for metrics, lists, or any other part of the ecosystem. Does one
fear "bad" things, association, or support "good" things?

I immediately observed that “Beastr0” posted via a Protonmail address.
Whereas Protonmail supports .onion, and has its own .onion:

https://protonirockerxow.onion/

https://protonmail.com/tor

https://protonmail.com/blog/tor-encrypted-email/

https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-tor-censorship/

https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/tor-setup/

Why does an individual who does not support .onion use a service which
promotes its own .onion?

Philosophical...

Tor supports the *right to read*.

Imagine that you were in the biggest library in the world—but a
librarian (or security camera) watched over your shoulder to observe and
record everything you read. You’d find that you self-censor your
selections. You would avoid anything too controversial—even if it were
something you wanted to read so that you could write an argument against
it! You would only read things you guess were acceptable to those
watching you. Adapt “Beastr0’s” statement, “I would prefer to not have
my real name attached” (to this controversial book).

**That is the Web without Tor.** Tor shields readers from the
shoulder-surfing librarian, the eye-tracking security cameras which
observe each *word* you read, the third-party analytics trackers and
“social media” buttons...

Tor also supports the *right to write*.

The ability to read without being tracked must be matched by the ability
to publish anonymously, or pseudonymously. The right of anonymous
publication is the cornerstone of the freedom of speech. .onion
protects that right.

/*
* .onion also has many additional uses; for but a few examples:
*
* 0. Taking load off exit nodes; e.g. if you run Debian, switch your
* `apt` updates to download from the repositories listed at
* https://onion.debian.org/ A/K/A http://5nca3wxl33tzlzj5.onion/ .
* See also https://onion.torproject.org/
* A/K/A http://yz7lpwfhhzcdyc5y.onion/ .
*
* 1. Enabling Bitcoin nodes to accept incoming connections without
* exposing their IP addresses.
*
* 2. Enabling communications tools such as Ricochet.
*
* 3. [...add your own here...]
*/

Pens... write code.

Code is speech. I observe that just as many fine .onion operators,
“Beastr0” desires to exercise the right to publish free speech under a

For the time being I would prefer to not have my real name attached to
Tor so I hope you don't mind if I introduce myself as Beastro.
I love Tor and its mission.

I hope that “Beastr0” will reconsider his/her/its pseudonymously
expressed opposition to .onion.

/*
* Cf. my current .sig motto, a matter of conceptual juxtaposition in
* popular propaganda as observed by yours truly. I am innocent.
* Aren’t “bad guys” the ones who should be tapped, tracked, and
* searched? How does anybody dare suggest that I should submit to
* surveillance *because* I am innocent, i.e. “have nothing to hide”?
*
* “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
*
* “No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.”
*
* — ***@nym.zone
*/

#endif /* !_ON_TOPIC_FOR_DEV_LIST_ */

[Beastr0]

Some interesting points, guys, thank you for sending them. Perhaps I will change my opinion one day and if I do I'm sure some of your thoughts on the subject will contribute to that.
Best,

- Bstro

p.s. I'm well aware that Proton Mail has .onion sites. I have nothing against them for having .onion websites. The same way I'm not against Qubes or even Tor for having .onion sites. As to why I use it... I'm not sure to be honest. I study and work in the security field so I guess like most of us I'm just paranoid.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [tor-dev] Agnostic Tools: Code Dev and Support For
Local Time: January 11, 2018 8:00 PM
UTC Time: January 11, 2018 8:00 PM

I don't really care what I work on, except I do not support .onion
websites (though I am willing to be convinced otherwise) so I would
prefer not to participate directly in their development.
[...]
Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
Philosophical...
Why does someone want to support and develop for Tor, or any other
overlay p2p anonymity network, or crypto, for that matter? When even a
fix to the manpage could be read and used by onion users and operators,
same for metrics, lists, or any other part of the ecosystem. Does one
fear "bad" things, association, or support "good" things?

I immediately observed that “Beastr0” posted via a Protonmail address.
https://protonirockerxow.onion/
https://protonmail.com/tor
https://protonmail.com/blog/tor-encrypted-email/
https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-tor-censorship/
https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/tor-setup/
Why does an individual who does not support .onion use a service which
promotes its own .onion?

Philosophical...

Tor supports the right to read.
Imagine that you were in the biggest library in the world—but a
librarian (or security camera) watched over your shoulder to observe and
record everything you read. You’d find that you self-censor your
selections. You would avoid anything too controversial—even if it were
something you wanted to read so that you could write an argument against
it! You would only read things you guess were acceptable to those
watching you. Adapt “Beastr0’s” statement, “I would prefer to not have
my real name attached” (to this controversial book).
That is the Web without Tor. Tor shields readers from the
shoulder-surfing librarian, the eye-tracking security cameras which
observe each word you read, the third-party analytics trackers and
“social media” buttons...
Tor also supports the right to write.
The ability to read without being tracked must be matched by the ability
to publish anonymously, or pseudonymously. The right of anonymous
publication is the cornerstone of the freedom of speech. .onion
protects that right.
/*
-
-
- Taking load off exit nodes; e.g. if you run Debian, switch your
- apt updates to download from the repositories listed at
- https://onion.debian.org/ A/K/A http://5nca3wxl33tzlzj5.onion/ .
- See also https://onion.torproject.org/
- A/K/A http://yz7lpwfhhzcdyc5y.onion/ .
-
-
- Enabling Bitcoin nodes to accept incoming connections without
- exposing their IP addresses.
-
-
- Enabling communications tools such as Ricochet.
-
-
- [...add your own here...]
*/

Pens... write code.

Code is speech. I observe that just as many fine .onion operators,
“Beastr0” desires to exercise the right to publish free speech under a

For the time being I would prefer to not have my real name attached to
Tor so I hope you don't mind if I introduce myself as Beastro.
I love Tor and its mission.

I hope that “Beastr0” will reconsider his/her/its pseudonymously
expressed opposition to .onion.
/*
- Cf. my current .sig motto, a matter of conceptual juxtaposition in
- popular propaganda as observed by yours truly. I am innocent.
- Aren’t “bad guys” the ones who should be tapped, tracked, and
- searched? How does anybody dare suggest that I should submit to
- surveillance because I am innocent, i.e. “have nothing to hide”?
-
- “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
-
- “No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.”
-
-
/
#endif / !ON_TOPIC_FOR_DEV_LIST */
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
“‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius
---------------------------------------------------------------
tor-dev mailing list
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev

[teor]

Hi,

This thread is off-topic, and unwelcoming to new contributors.
Please stop.

This list is used for developing new features, bug fixes, and
removing old features.

Criticising how people choose to volunteer their time doesn't
help us develop tor.

Writing multiple, long, critical emails to respond to one line in
someone's first thread, does not help new people do tor
development.

I want everyone to be free to express themselves: but this list
has a purpose, and we need to stick to that purpose.

That's fine. People are free to work on what they like.
Convincing people to support Tor features is not a topic for this list :-)

If you want to continue a general discussion about the benefits
of developing agnostic tools, or onion services, please move it
to tor-talk.

T

[grarpamp]

Post by teor
This thread is off-topic
This list is used for developing new features, bug fixes, and
removing old features.

Here are three easily found and directly quoted charters
for this list, none of which are strictly constrained to only
the feature and bug topics described above...

"discussion regarding Tor development"
"Development related discussion list"
"for discussion by the developers"

Post by teor
unwelcoming to new contributors.
Criticising how people choose to volunteer their time

Hardly. At least one email was newthreaded and deattributed,
using no monikers or personal pronouns, being void of any directives
or aggressive / abusive speech, and surely naught but positing
free and open questions.

Post by teor
doesn't help us develop tor.

Nay but benefit... It can help make developers stronger through providing
perhaps a rarely present oppurtunity outside the code routine for
self thought, reflection and review, to reaffirm or even adapt / modify
ones own course and efforts.

This has been noted as "interesting" by, and received "thank you"
from, at least one tor developer.

Should we not welcome and collaborate with all who might have
and allow for such occaisional thought time... are they not the
most welcome of any devs.

- A fourth, the list... "is very low traffic"

As any such reflection therein should perhaps be.

Post by teor
I want everyone to be free to express themselves

As all are.

Post by teor
we need to stick to that purpose.

For were there to be no such general prevailing focus on the
tech at hand, there might be few, and lesser, agnostic tools.

To wit, one lesser...

Post by teor
#endif

nullius.c:1:2: error: #endif without #if

;)

[nullius]

Post by grarpamp
To wit, one lesser...

Post by nullius
#endif

nullius.c:1:2: error: #endif without #if
;)

Touché. I suppose I’ll be babysitting the build for awhile. Fair
enough?

[nullius]

(I began writing this earlier, but returned (-1) with ENOTIME.)

Post by teor
This thread is off-topic,

I know. But for understandable reasons, as stated below; and with all

Post by teor

Post by nullius
#endif /* !_ON_TOPIC_FOR_DEV_LIST_ */

and unwelcoming to new contributors.

0. I disagree in principle with the “welcoming environment” notion; but
that’s hereto irrelevant, for nothing an ordinary reasonable person
would deem “unwelcoming” was said on this thread.

1. It’s an awful trick, soliciting contributions for a project which is
ideological in nature—and then expecting people to avoid speaking out
for their motivating ideological passions, when those are entwined with
the context of a technical discussion. Some might even consider that
unwelcoming to potential (quasi-)new contributors, such as myself.

2. I didn’t state any sort of personalized invective; and I certainly
didn’t read grarpamp’s post that way, either. For my part, to the
contrary, I stated constructive criticisms and counterarguments as to an
abstract opinion. That was more than warranted, given Tor’s stated
mission—and whereas “Beastr0” had expressed reasonable open-mindedness,
as I fairly quoted (“(though I am willing to be convinced otherwise)”).
I also thought that “Beastr0” replied to me quite reasonably:

https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2018-January/012802.html

Post by teor
Some interesting points, guys, thank you for sending them. Perhaps I
will change my opinion one day and if I do I'm sure some of your
thoughts on the subject will contribute to that.
Best,
- Bstro

“Beastr0”, you’re welcome—and thanks for thinking it over! Given my
aforestated “motivating ideological passions” about the right to
anonymous publication, that little note made my day.

If anything I said in this thread could potentially help bring someone
out there to reconsider and perhaps support .onion in the future, then I
would call that a happy ending all-around.

Post by teor
Please stop.